A dialogue between famed Advertising Creative Director Harry Webber and Daryl Orris:
"adver-marketing." Great idea. Needs a better name. I know some guys in advertising that could hook that up for you. http://MadisonAveNew.com –HARRY WEBBER, LOS ANGELES, CA
(Dialogue is from bottom up.)
"Bold talk from someone who sees advertising as a sunset industry." Think of me as an angry fist holding a small megaphone standing in the middle of Madison Avenue at 4am trying to wake the dead. The lights are on, but nobody's home.
"I had two post-WWII mentors both journalism graduates (Columbia and Minnesota) who held your beliefs, but alas they too are dead." I am not post-WWII, I am Post-Advertising. As for the dead part, that's still up for debate.
"Advertising is a paid, mass mediated attempt to persuade." "Attempt" is the key word here. How can you attempt to persuade anyone to do anything if they have you on "ignore?" And why should anyone pay for a service that has lost the power to engage its audience?
"But the bottom line is none the less achieving quantifiable results for brand managers that hire you." No one has yet been able to tie advertising to sales. Now they can't even tie it to awareness. And forget about tying it to persuasion. –HARRY WEBBER, LOS ANGELES, CA
Dear Harry, Bold talk from someone who sees advertising as a sunset industry.
I agree with Bernbach, even though he is long dead. Advertising is persuasion and it is an art, as is brand management, thus the MBA. I had two post-WWII mentors both journalism graduates (Columbia and Minnesota) who held your beliefs, but alas they too are dead. Advertising is a paid, mass mediated attempt to persuade. And advertising as it is now used is synonymous with all sorts of promotional methods - not exclusively print and broadcast media.
I too believe that more clients are dependent upon agencies for the art of their ideas then the empirical evidence of their business theories -- however I was stating that the two (agency and client) need to become more cooperative and avoid duplication and overlapping to work in better harmony - and not against one another. But the bottom line is none the less achieving quantifiable results for brand managers that hire you. I particularly enjoy your naysayer view of advertising and predictions of doom for what you call a sunset industry. Harry I am one of your fans. However, advertising in its new context is bigger today then it has ever been. And it is not going away, even though you may try to wish it away. Advertising works and is much more relevant to people's lives today then the TVC-Print era of yesterday. That era is passing away. And my brand of metrics is producing results for clients using creativity, using Integrated Brand Promotion and teaming with clients to be in sync with them to create a synergy not otherwise possible.
I recently returned from China where I had consulted businesses and organizations on advertising and promotion. In 1949 advertising was banned as a Western evil. Since 1992 joint ventures controlled by the government have dominated advertising in China. And the joint ventures worked well enough to convince the Chinese officials that advertising works and will assist China in achieving its objectives to make it a world economic power. Not only do I not think advertising is not dead, but it is in fact in a metamorphosis now transitioning to a new phase of adver-marketing. Adver-marketing will take advantage of interactive media to persuade consumers to buy and build brand preferences. This is witnessed by adding a new billion people audience an d consumer base. Advertising is the number one expense of all businesses' marketing. As much as they (business) would like it to disappear, advertising is in fact becoming more important in brand promotion, creation, and marketing.
So while a fan, I couldn't disagree with you more. Voodoo advertising methods don't cut it in 2008, nor will they in the future. Advertising is a growth industry and Adver-marketing will require quantitative evidence that the promotional effort is effective. Quantifiable and qualitative results have become an inherent part of the new advertising, that I call adver-marketing. –daryl orris, Minnetonka, MN
Tom,
I feel kind of bad about not adding something deeper, but I would bet a lot of money that you could run this exact same post every 12-months and receive almost identical responses.
The creative/producer model isn't going to happen, it's already happened. The keiretsu/TAAN/Worldwide Partners Model isn't developing, it's been going on for 60+ years. And as for the ubersuit, they are going to look and sound a whole lot like the uber account folk of advertising lore.
So the good news, everything you have predicted has already happened. The bad news: I'm not 100% sure our industry realizes it. –Paul Davidson, Denver, CO
Mr. Orris,
Your dependence on emperical evidence is consistant with the so-called common wisdom that put both the advertising and media industries in the current doldrums both find themselves in. The Nielsens were once considered empirical evidence, as were any other research findings that were/are dependent upon projected results.
A 1,500 sample does not speak for a million frames of mind.
William Bernbach once said, "Advertising is fundamentally persuasion, and persuasion happens to be not a science, but an art." Mr. Bernbach, would applaud Mr. Martin's Chrystal Ball gazing before he would support your dismissive request for evidence.
What more evidence do you require than sliding audiences and diminishing advertising budgets. Your brand of metric worship has become a dog that won't hunt. 1,775 words don't make your point of view any more relevant.
_I certainly believe that more clients are dependent upon agencies for the art of their ideas then the empirical evidence of their business theories. I also believe that Mr. Bernbach's Art has been responsible for more cash register rings than Mr. Yankelovich's metrics.
Most certainly you are entitled to your point of view about Mr. Martin's writing. But it is after all just an opinion and therefor subjective. Which is hardly conclusive, lacking any emperical data to support it. http://MadisonAveNew.com –HARRY WEBBER, LOS ANGELES, CA
Hi Daryl...allow me to clarify; you are correct - WOM and influence communications in general have been around forever. The shift I refer to is one in which technology has fostered a new level of dynamic participation amongst consumers and their collaborations with other content/product creators. Thanks for calling this out!
As for your comments to Tom...I actually think you guys are on a similar page, just perhaps caught up more in a semantic debate. Regardless of whether or not you agree with the particulars of the model he discusses, he makes an astute observation about the role agencies play and will play in the future. –Gunther Sonnenfeld, Los Angeles, CA
Dear Tom, Yes I disagree with you, but no, I do not believe you are unfit to write these posts. In fact I admire your courage.
But my meaning was clear if re-read my comments. Perhaps with that input your articles will gain a little something. The ideas you present are great but your focus on your own emotions devoid of any empirical evidence — operating solely on the primacy of your "feelings" — rather than on analysis supported by some type of evidence, is a problem easily cured. Do a little research prior to writing. Then I'll be critical of your sources instead of being critical of you. It is your personalized writing style that gets my ire more than your theories. Some call it navel gazing. –daryl orris, Minnetonka, MN
So Daryl,
If I understand your 1,775 word treatise correctly... you disagree with me and think me unfit to write these posts.
Oh if only the comment field had the same 700 word limit my posts have...
www.tommartin.typepad.com –TOM MARTIN, NEW ORLEANS, LA
P.S. Dear Gunther, Thanks for the new reading list. As for (...) "influence communications", agencies will likely become (whether they like it or not) collaborators with consumer technograhic groups that are not only key brand stakeholders, but product creators. In fact, we're already seeing this shift in a major way." (...) It isn't new. Astute marketers have been practicing this for decades. General Mills for example, has collaborated with consumers from the time of Betty Crocker. Its consumer comments have fueled new products, categories and markets. Agencies have traditionally given substance to their 'visions,' and have developed promotions to achieve stakeholder input through such devices as the Pillsbury Bake-off. Other marketers are becoming better listeners -- as should agencies. –daryl orris, Minnetonka, MN
Dear Tom, Your statement: (...)"What will the world of advertising look like for small agencies in five years? More important, what will your agency look like in five years? My crystal ball says many of us are in for a rude awakening."(...) Is indicative of someone primarily focused on their own emotions devoid of any empirical evidence — operating solely on the primacy of their "feelings" — rather than on analysis supported by some type of evidence. You are clearly uncertain as to what constitutes reliable evidence, thus tend to use the most easily found sources uncritically -- by using the Keiretsu Model that has never appeared outside Japan, it appears you have applied it to the larger agency models but they lack the 'bank factor' to finance and bail-out members along with the cooperative nature of Keiretsu involving established and unrelated businesses. Characterizing large agency networks as Chinese Triads might be more appropriate, but still a stretch. But using an esoteric foreign organization to predict agencies of the future is goofy. It is a bizarre analogy to explain why large agencies acquire smaller ones and why larger businesses use them. The obvious reason is to buy the agency's clients and talent in a given market, and for large businesses, it is to take advantage of economies created by such large advertising organization.
And it appears you are convinced that no opinion is worth more than another after your recent discoveries: All views are equal after yours. Looking into your crystal ball is a good indicator that you are not really embarrassed at your lack of knowledge and skills for addressing key issues in advertising but instead offer hyperbole and opinion to feed on the fears of clueless individuals caught in the current flux in media advertising. Industry analysts collectively see the advertising industry in a period of change caused by the aftereffects of 9/11, consumer media use, and media fragmentation, which is when this downturn began. At that time advertisers cut their media advertising while increasing their trade promotions and while many mediums have rebounded clearly there is a shift in spending. This is well documented by Ad Age statistics. This coincides with a dramatic industry shift from manufacture to retailer dominance where more and more marketing dollars go to retailer promotions. Your "C" and "P" agency models exist now and are functioning just fine, as are other models such as the large holding networks to small creative boutiques. The models that work are the ones that answer their client's needs.
Scholars of advertising see a cooperative merger of the Marketing Director/or Senior executive and the Advertising Agency where they work cooperatively utilizing the knowledge and skills of each discipline rather than many of the overlapping and duplication of efforts seen now. Corporate CMOs understand that trade promotion is not enough to strategically differentiate their brand(s) within their operating category and unique local markets. One size does not fit all and they increasingly rely on agencies with local market or niche marketing expertise. For example, you could tell P&G of your local market knowledge and experience in New Orleans in the aftermath of Katrina. Assist it in marketing to the market you serve. Businesses have reams of historic data documenting media use and its effectiveness for their brands broken down by markets. Seldom does the Marketing Director share this information with its agency. It is their 'Holy Grail' and held as a secret. It is strategic and it is something they wouldn't want in their competitor's hands. More cooperative arrangements with marketer and agency and understanding of each will improve the effectiveness of both.
Clearly media is in a transition period and New Media is muddying-up the waters because no one has yet found a workable compensation model that equates to measurable results for marketers and agencies – especially advertising agencies. The well-documented fragmentation of media has put all mediums in a state of change. This transition period will include New Media as an important part for the promotional mix and marketing of brands. A good example of this was last year's Super Bowl. Here agencies used a mix of traditional TVC, promotions, with New Media to get more bang for the buck. In the near future New Media will be central to all brand promotion. In the very near future communication experts say that New Media will become the central marketing and promotion medium because of continued technological advances, consumer use growth and platform mergers/convergence. AT&T and several other companies have began marketing a single platform product for telecommunications, cable/broadcast entertainment and broadband/high speed Internet connection – it is being promoted as a consumer convenience that costs less – when convergence occurs, each will share content. Networks are streaming shows on-line and can show actual website hits as opposed to AC Nielsen voodoo metrics. As the transition between platforms becomes more seamless with technological advances, multimedia communications will become the standard for communications. With New Media's emergence as a primary lead promotional vehicle and with convergence, it is important that new media is integrated into the marketing/promotional mix of all brands now. Convergence will deliver once again, that critical mass that TV once did. Traditional Media fragmentation is making it more difficult to reach mass target audiences; and its costs are increasing as its effectiveness is decreasing. Traditional Media is feverously working to develop an Internet presence and for ways to interconnect the two for added revenues. Businesses have responded with more niche market products and services that can be reached and affected by niche media. Thus, media is in a transition period. Traditional advertising agencies have lost media revenues from the shift of media advertising to trade promotions and to advertisers who have switched their media buys to specialized Media Agencies who offer better planning, results and economy because of their huge buying capabilities. And then durables, packaged goods manufacturers, retailers and service businesses have taken control of their own websites with internal IT jealously guarding their domain to the chagrin of advertising agencies. All of these organizations need creative content and promotional methods to attract an audience - and that is the perfect entrée for agencies.
So not using a 'crystal ball' but instead looking at the realities around us, I'd say that the best strategy for any agency is to focus on their creative product and client responsiveness as well as their local market expertise and touting that to marketers and advertisers. Perhaps align themselves with a Media Agency that offers a commission, and utilize their expert planners and big buy economies for measurable results for medium and large clients. Retailers are threatening every aspect of consumer product and service brands by offering their own retailer generic brands. Marketers and advertising agencies need to work in concert to fend off this assault by practicing strategic branding to differentiate their brands within their category and market(s). With both understanding the realities of media in transition, and emerging New Media opportunities, together they need to develop metrics that assess both media and creative strategy effectiveness and work together to deliver quantifiable results.
The agency that is the most responsive to the needs of the businesses it serves, and can develop strategic creative that differentiates the brand and delivers sales, volume and profits to quantify it, will win in the future. Just as they are winning now. Those looking in crystal balls and not at the realities around them are sure to lose. Advertising has always been a custom-built approach for every client and market. Even though it may appear that everyone is doing the same thing, the reality is that winners in the marketing wars are quickly copied. So marketers have to be one step ahead of the competition. The same is true of agencies. Today, with the Internet and agencies needing to divulge everything about themselves and their innermost secret strategies, it isn't too difficult to see what the competition is up to. Prior to the Internet, agencies would get proposals from clients to help them understand what is out there. When I represented a client as agency of record, I told them that they should refer all promotional inquiries to me, and I would assess them and make monthly reports back to my clients if anything looked viable – thus saving my client's time. It worked too. They saved time and I learned what my competition was pitching. It is fairly easy to do the same now by surfing the web.
So your ideas on Role, Staffing, Compensation, seem pretty pedestrian to me. Role: the traditional generalist agency is coming to an end – if the traditional generalist agency has any size, it will do what it has always done: wait until a smaller agency develops it so they can suck it up like a big vacuum cleaner, and so on it goes to the largest agencies who have been known to share clients. They are going no where, it is business as usual for them – they just hire the expertise needed to keep relevant. Staffing: all agencies need what you describe now, not in the future. One-size-fits-all doesn't work in a custom design business. Each strategy is tailored for that unique client, as is the strategy. Compensation: Traditional fees and commissions will always be the rule. Compensation on a fee or percentage of profit basis is the reality of sophisticated marketing agencies that specialize in an particular industry and in branding within that industry. These Marketing Agencies bring new business segment expertise to business on a flat fee or percentage basis now. But I have not heard of an advertising agency that has taken a percentage of its client's revenues. Many wished they could.
So again, I think you have fairly described the current state of affairs in advertising offering little new insights or information. Theory and conjecture not backed up with some sort of empirical evidence, facts, or reference is little more than lip service and wishful thinking. Your Advertising 5.0 is as generic and as general as it can get. Good advice for an agency trying to remain relevant is to go to its clients and ask them where they'd like to be in five years and then design plans to meet their goals and objectives. Tell them how you can assist them in attaining these thresholds using your Role, Staffing, Compensation, as a start point to develop a strategic plan. If it is breakthrough, perhaps then you could get a piece of their pie. My belief was and is that this isn't about us, it is all about them – the client. –daryl orris, Minnetonka, MN
_Dear Tom,
I disagree with everything you have said.
First, Time. There was a time when agencies set the agenda and schedules. As brand managers became better at statistical analysis and method management techniques they began to track and quantify their advertising results. They determined which media was effective, which creative strategy distinguished their brand(s) and moved product and services. Their quantitative management gave them the right to call all of the shots and take the power that agencies once had in post-war America. This brand history kept by them gives them the right to call the shots. So why fight them, why not join them?
When an agency works in concert or unison with Brand Directors and Managers timing can be progressive where several creative strategies are tested in trial or test markets before the effort is implemented on a larger and more costly basis. When agency and advertiser work in unison, the timeline can be from a quarter to an ongoing five-year plan where each year the creative strategy is assessed, adjusted and evaluated for the next year. Doing this, agencies have all the time in the world to come up with "the big idea," as you put it.
In the fifties ad agencies developed unique selling propositions using features and benefits to distinguish the product. Where selling and telling dominated advertising.
Remember Ogilvy's Hathaway Man with his black eye patch? This is the "Image Era" where agencies used features and benefits, and unique selling propositions to differentiate the product in its category and to make the product memorable.
Then in the seventies came the "Positioning Era" fostered by Al Ries and Jack Trout where finding a place in the consumer's mind that bring relationship mindsets to the Brand.
In the mid-seventies, Brands became popular, replacing widgets in U.S. business schools. This extended into the eighties and became known as the "Branding Era" that was pushed by Brand Managers on agencies who would have them leverage their brand in the category and in time reducing the perceived differences between brands. Agencies were still stuck on "Positioning" trying to merge the two.
The "Branding Era" continued into the nineties and into the 21st century where somehow positioning and branding merged into a new hybrid form. In 2008 it is the "Mindset Era," where branding is not about telling and selling but about making positive associations with the brand and strategically positioning the brand in its category to create a consumer-brand relationship where the brand is a lifestyle statement. It is just as Ries and Trout envisioned it only now with a distinct brand purpose tied to brand management. For example, take automobiles: what are the mindset relationships between a Honda Hybrid and a Mercedes Benz C Class? Each brand targets the same consumer and each is positioned differently in its respective category making positive brand associations with the target consumer's lifestyle. When it is time to purchase which way will the target consumer go – to the brand that made the positive Mindset Associations and had developed two-way communication with the consumer instead of one-way telling and selling. How do we get in the consumer's mindset first, or get them to switch? Being first is everything. Being second, is well, second best.
Time is a tool that when used to in conjunction with the brand manager's goals and objectives and the creative strategy of the agency can be an ongoing testing and modification of the creative strategy to affect sales, volume and profits. Advertising agencies like brand manager want the same thing, so find the time both need and dovetail strategic planning and creative strategy activities – by making them coordinated, controlled and timed. This way both have the time they need.
Technology. Form outweighs function? Do you mean poor message strategy or creative strategy can't be glossed over with production technology? To me, technology refers not to production but to mass communications. New Media is changing all media placing it in a state of transition while the Internet becomes more and more important to marketers. I was impressed by the convergence of media witnessed by broadcast to Internet assessments and the results that the more sophisticated marketers and advertisers got using a multi-media approach to the spectacle. One could only use terms such as "spectacular, spectacular, in evaluating the successes of the broadcast to Internet success stories. Technology in the form of production provided plenty of dazzling effects that kept viewer attention while luring them to the Internet. Technology rules.
Then your take on "Favor Impact over Impressions," statement. Where you said imagine today asking a client to spend over a million and then telling them is would only run once ... seems to me that was exactly what every agency did asked of advertisers. Hopefully they get more mileage out of the spots then the one time broadcast event provides, that with the Internet they'll on into infinity. I really scratched my head on this one. Not only could I imagine it, it is what every agency that produced spots did. To me it was a testimonial that advertising really does work.
Then "Leadership." Sounds like you're the one whining. Advertising is a growing industry. When looked at as a whole, it is an international growth industry. And all indicators suggest that it will continue to grow. It is mass communications primarily media that is in transition and in the midst of change that is changing how advertising agencies promote brands. But your comment about Agencies framing their work in terms business and not creative terms is surely the kiss of death. Advertising Agencies are about creativity. It is that creative product that they produce that catapults businesses to higher ground. And it is there ability to continually find this new ground through the methods and techniques previously stated that separates good agencies from bad. Ads are big ideas, and the concept of 'just an ad' is abhorrent to all of the creative advertising people I know. I don't know if I'd care to trust your 'informed' opinion unless you have a track record of success in my industry. This harkens back to what I said earlier about working in unison with Advertisers. Unless the client is new to the business they are in, they have the information you need – forming cohesive relationship with marketing and sales and finding the data they have amassed and harvesting it to yield new strategies is far better evidence than me-too recommendations with a creative spin.
Finally, Training. The best form of organization from a training standpoint is what the U.S. Army uses. When one leader takes one in the head, the next dummy jumps in to take their place. It is a pure form of communism where everyone has a place and everyone is being trained to assume the duty of the next in the chain of command. I'd hate to work at your agency where 'pushing' is the preferred method of encouraging creativity. Dr. Demmings book on management taught the Japanese in what is now called the Japanese miracle. Simply put it promoted working in groups where everyone makes contributions. Thus feeling an integral part of the group thus becoming more productive. Advertising agencies should be cohesive groups of "Individuals" who each bring ideas and solutions to the group, the creative teams or account services and creative production should be better than the suits and sandals sets. It is a known fact that today everyone at an advertising agency has to be "creative," looking for the next big idea and creative strategy to change our clients business or keep it where they want it – no matter where it comes from.
We are on the cusp of a new era in advertising with the advent and transitioning to digital and social media. Engaging consumers with these two-way communication tools are adding to the marketers and advertising agencies effectiveness in relating the brand to the consumer. Remember a brand is what the consumer says it is -- it is up to the advertising agency to shape those perceptions and alter the way the brand is perceived within its category and with the target consumer. Advertising is no longer about "Telling and Selling" but instead about developing positive relationship for the brand with the target consumer.
I believe that agencies should develop better relationships with higher education institutions that teach advertising – by providing two-way communication with them agencies can provide input as to the candidates that they want and in the process help educators and students better understand the realities of the advertising business. How many dreamy-eyed newcomers have entered the twilight zone when faced with agencies realities – this could be eliminated by better intern programs and with more two-way relationships between higher education and advertising agencies. –daryl orris, Minnetonka, MN
